Crooks and Stewart, Ardclinis

Discussion in 'Main Forum' started by causeway, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. causeway

    causeway New Member

    Victoria Crooks born 1827 married Henry Stewart of Lemnalary at St Mary Ardclinis on 1st March 1858.

    Victoria's parents were Patrick (or possibly John) Crooks and Martha kennedy.

    Pat Crooks of Lennalary is listed in the 1828 tithe applotment. Could that be Victoria's father or grandfather?
    No Stewarts listed, so did they move in later and if so where from?

    The family subsequently moved to Kintyre.

    Can anyone help with further information about the Ardclinis connection?
  2. Elwyn

    Elwyn Member

    The 1858 marriage certificate should give you Victoria’s townland (address) and her father's name and occupation. What does it say? That information should help identify the correct Crooks family.
  3. causeway

    causeway New Member

    That is a good suggestion. Searching in Northern Ireland is new to me. Do I need a paper certificate, or would I be able to obtain it using GRONI s online search certificate?

    There is a John Crooks of Lemnary (or something like it) in the hearth tax, so it is worth pursuing further to see if there is a link. Not sure quite how to do this.
  4. Elwyn

    Elwyn Member

    You don’t need a paper certificate. You can view the certificate on-line using the GRONI site. It should cost £2.50 (sterling). Post the details here and I’ll see if I can help you a bit further.

    There’s not much you can really do with the Hearth Tax information. It simply tells you that someone (normally head of household) lived in that townland and paid the Hearth Tax. Useful if you already knew your family lived there, but there’s no additional information in the Hearth Tax records to be obtained.
  5. causeway

    causeway New Member

    Match 1, 1858

    Henry Stewart age 24, labourer residence: Lemnelary father William Stewart labourer
    Victoria Crooks 31 Lemnelary father Patrick Crooks weaver

    Samuel Crooks (Victoria's brother I think) was a witness. The other signature I am still working on.
  6. Elwyn

    Elwyn Member

    The tithe applotment records only list people with land of a size worth taxing. So most were farmers and cottiers (small farmers). Some weavers had a little land but not always. Most labourers would have just a perch or two to grow vegetables. Normally not enough to get listed in the tithes.

    So the Stewart family may well have been in the townland at the time of the tithes but just not listed.

    Griffiths Valuation for 1861 lists 2 Crooks properties in Lemnalary. One was James Crooks who had plot 2 which was a 5 acre farm. So he was a cottier, a small farmer/weaver. The other was Margaret Crooks who had plot 7b which was a labourers house on William Rogers land. Margaret was probably a widow.

    No Stewarts listed in the townland at that time.

    Margaret’s name remains against plot 7a till around 1893. Possibly she died then. James Crooks name remains against plot 2 until at least 1920, though there are no Crooks there in the 1901 or 1911 censuses, so presumably it had been sublet but that had not been picked up by Griffiths clerks.

    I searched for deaths for Patrick & Martha Crooks post 1864 (when death registration started) but did not find them, so suspect both had died before that date. The James on plot 2 might have been their son. Pat Crooks in the tithes is likely to have been related. He could well have been Victoria’s father. (In the 1901 census there were only 13 houses in the townland so it wasn’t a big place).

    There aren’t really many sources in Ireland to get back earlier than you are. Most Irish research stops around the 1800 barrier. The families might be in the Antrim Estate records at PRONI. (records of tenants start around 1820).

    Going back a couple of hundred years, many of the occupants of the Glens of Antrim arrived there from the McDonnell/MacDonald estates in Scotland. Many originated in Islay, Jura, Kintyre and adjacent areas and moved to north Antrim when the McDonnells acquired land there in the 1500s. They were a mix of RC and Presbyterians.
  7. causeway

    causeway New Member

    Thank you very much indeed for researching this.

    Victoria's father Patrick Crooks must take us back to somewhere around 1800 given her age in 1858.
    A mystery why he is 'John' on Victoria's death certificate; possibly the informant got it wrong?

    Our McLean line also goes from Kintyre to Ireland, but so far I have no indication of a place for them, and unless the spelling is helpful they may remain lost, although with new records appearing online something may come to light. Quite likely their origins also are as you suggest...unless, of course, they came to Ireland much earlier.

    Thank you again for your help.
  8. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    My mother just posted a photo of her Great Great Granparents, Henry and Victoria Crooks Stewart. I have been working on researching my ancestry and am making progress on my mom's side. Anyways, I was searching the Antrim census, and decided to Google the site with Crooks Stewart to see if I could find results faster when I found this post. Could we be possibly talking about the same people?

    Here is a photo of them:

  9. causeway

    causeway New Member

    If it is the same couple, they would be my great great great grandparents. Their daughter Rose Ann Stewart born about 1859 would be great great grandmother. (I think I am right about the number of greats?). If it is the same family Rose Ann was born in Ireland, but in Southend, Kintyre in the 1871 census. Henry became gardener at the Templar's hall in Campbeltown.
  10. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    Interesting information! I was able to get ahold of my mom's family records, and I unfortunately don't think they're the same people. I sent you a record that I think has their birthdates listed in 1864 (Henry) and 1857 (Victoria). They had a daughter, Helen Stewart, who went by Caroline. Her birthdate was 20 August 1904, so a birthdate of 1827 for Victoria wouldn't work.
  11. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    Never mind the above! I was looking through all the documents and I think I've solved an issue with my genealogy information. I do now think we have the same Henry and Victoria Crooks Stewart. I thought that the Caroline(Helen) they gave birth to was born 20 August, 1904. Caroline(Helen) was born 19 May 1864. She married Duncan Martin and they gave birth to Caroline, the one actually born on 20 August, 1904.

  12. causeway

    causeway New Member

    Does this help at all???

    1871 Front Street, Southend

    henry Stewart head 32 Ag labourer Ireland

    Victoria wife 44 Ireland

    Rose Ann daughter 12 ireland

    Patrick son 9 scholar Ireland

    caroline H dau 7 argyllshire Southend

    Samuel 3

    They don't seem to have known their wedding day accurately, so ages could also be wrong. Does the family look at all like yours?

    I tried to upload the death registration for Victoria Crooks, but the file is too big.

    Reads as follows:

    Victoria Stewart, widow of Henry Stewart, gardener.
    1909 February 3rd 8am
    f 63 yrs (could be 83)

    parents: John Crooks (but Patrick on their marriage certificate) deceased
    Martha Crooks MS Kennedy deceased

    Informant ( this is where it gets interesting):

    Duncan Martin, son in law

    Cause of death is there if you need to know.

    I think the informants name convinces me that this is the same person?
  13. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    Helen(Caroline)'s place of birth was Southend, same as what you listed above. She also married Duncan Martin, so I think I'm pretty well convinced this is the same family. My mom (also a Caroline) isn't sure why Helen started going by Caroline, but my mom, grandmother, great grandmother and her (Helen) all were given the name. My parents are going to scan more documents for me to look through, so if I happen to come across anything, I will forward it along. On Helen's birth certificate, Henry and Victoria's marriage date is listed as 1857 March 2nd, which is just a year off the date of what you found above. Place of marriage is also consistent.
  14. causeway

    causeway New Member

  15. causeway

    causeway New Member

    The inconsistencies make it so hard to trace people, but I think we are onto something here.
    A 1903 post office directory available online has Henry Stewart hallkeeper at the Templar's hall.
    He looks a nice, gentle man. the suit doesn't fit him very well?

    A year and a day out for the marriage might be significant. and an understandable mistake.

    For exact ages we would need the Baptism register for St Mary, Ardclinis which is still in the possession of the Church. I doubt that it would take us back another generation though.
  16. causeway

    causeway New Member

    By the way I would be very interested in anything you can add.

    Rose Ann Stewart married Charles Mclean, maltster. His family also came from Ireland, but I have no idea where.

    Would out mothers be third cousins or is it not that simple?
  17. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    From what I read, Third cousins share the same Great-Great-Grandparents, so yes! I believe they would be!

    Have you come across any documentation of Victoria's maiden name being spelled as Cruicks? I was sent Caroline(Helen)'s death certificate, and her parents were listed as:

    Henry Stewart - General harborer (deceased)
    Victoria Stewarts m.s. Cruicks (deceased)

    If I find anything in my searches, I will definitely let you know!
  18. causeway

    causeway New Member

  19. causeway

    causeway New Member

    I think always crooks for Victoria, but I have seen Crooks or Crookshanks for someone in lower Glenarm; Cruiks or Cruikshanks would be a variant.

    This was an age in which spelling may have depended on who was writing, as people may not have known how to spell their name. In Campbeltown there is an additional problem, because there may have been a language barrier. 1901 censns may indicate if they were gaelic speakers.

    My mum will be pleased to see the phot; thank you for sharing it. have you any idea when it was taken?
  20. Jennylouns

    Jennylouns New Member

    I was wondering if Gaelic had any influence on the spelling. In terms of date, the information I got that it was likely in the 1800's. That's pretty broad, so if I can get more information, I will let you know! I found a lot of photos of Caroline(Helen) so I'm trying to see if I can find any larger family photos.

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